The following is a TRANSCRIPTION of the meeting between Floridians for
Alternatives to the Death Penalty (FADP) and Florida Governor Jeb Bush,
Friday, December 19, 2003, in Mayo, Florida. See
www.fadp.org/jebvisit2003.html for photos, press releases and
background.
Please know that this transcription was made from an audio recording that
was not top quality. Unfortunately, a reader cannot hear inflection or
tone in the voice of a speaker. Both Hannah and SueZann were speaking in
an anguished or crying voice - they were speaking from the heart, and that
comes with emotion. It also means that some words were unclear. We have
filled in minor gaps where it was obvious or not specifically vital
detail. Where it was completely unclear what was said, that is indicated
by the word [unintelligible]. There are moments when more than one person
is talking making the conversation unclear - such moments are indicated by
the word "crosstalk." In a few cases where the speaker obviously misspoke,
the correct word was used in place of the misspoken word. (e.g. Abe said
"tiny majority" when he meant "tiny minority." The correction was used in
this text.) Minor grammatical corrections have been made as well.
A few things to note when reading this transcription.
- Jeb interrupts well - right when a person is about to make an important point
and
- in such a way or with the type of comment to divert attention. Notice also the
extensive use of the term "we"- when he is really referring to HIS responsibilities.
Participants:
Jeb Bush - Governor of the State of Florida
Abe Bonowitz - Director of Floridians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty
( www.FADP.org )
SueZann Bosler - Board member of the Journey of Hope &From Violence to
Healing ( www.journeyofhope.org ) and member of Murder Victim's
Families for Reconciliation ( www.MVFR.org ).
Hannah Floyd - Representing the Florida Death Row Advocacy Group (
www.FDRAG.org ), and joined by her daughters Stephanie (17) and
Emily (10).
INTRODUCTION: After saying good morning to everyone assembled in the
registration area, Jeb invited the first group to follow him through a
phalanx of aides, other state officials, and security personnel. It was
surprising that we were never searched or put through a metal detector, and
no security personnel joined us when we arrived in a small office and sat
around a rectangular table. After pleasantries, Abe pulled out a tape
recorder already set to record, and began:
ABE: One other thing. Do you mind if we record our session?
JEB: No. No I don't mind. I know that I'm used as a means to
present your cause, and that's reasonable.
ABE: We appreciate that. Thanks for doing this. It's umm -
JEB: I haven't seen - you have a hearing aid now.
ABE: I have two of them.
JEB: We didn't see 'em last time, did we? Did you?
ABE: I've been wearing them since I was in high school..
JEB: Really? Oh, I'm sorry... I didn't notice.
ABE: It's all right. We actually wrote up a press release, with a
headline saying that we were coming to express our appreciation - (see
press release at www.fadp.org/pressrel100.html )
JEB: I heard - and then - the timing turned out that we signed a
death warrant yesterday.
ABE: Yeah.... Well, I want to introduce to you Hannah Floyd and
her children, and they've got a message to share....
JEB: OK.
ABE: SueZann and I will have some other things to add after that.
JEB: OK.
HANNAH: Well now that I'm here, I don't really know what to say to
you. What goes through your head when you sign these warrants? That man
that you signed the warrant for yesterday, he has family, too.
JEB: Uh.. He committed an atrocious crime and the laws of our
state are such that, uh, people that commit the most atrocious of crimes
are, are uhh.... there's capital punishment and they get the death
penalty. And so, uhh....
HANNAH: I wish you would be real with me -
JEB: I'm being real with you, ma'am -
CROSSTALK
HANNAH: No, you're not... It's not the ones who do the most - whatever
word you used - it's the people who have no money that are in there. You
know that's not true....
JEB: You don't think that the crime that was committed was -
HANNAH: I don't know about Johnny Robinson's - I mean I know that some of
these crimes are horrible but I also know that -
JEB: Well then you and I have a respectful disagreement. I
respect you for, I assume you are opposed to the death penalty?
HANNAH: Very much so.
JEB: OK, I respect you for that. You should be respectful of
people who have a different point of view.
HANNAH: Yeah, except that you have the power to kill my husband.
JEB: I don't know who your husband is. You are going to need to
explain that to me.
HANNAH: He's been there for 19 years for something he didn't do.
JEB: Well if you have information about that, then we have a
process that we can inquire about it. Do you have the information? Has he
gone through the clemency process?
HANNAH: NO, no.... he's not that far yet.
JEB: Well if he's innocent, you'd be concerned. I am, too.
HANNAH: Yeah... but I mean you know that there's men being released every
year that's innocent in there, right?
JEB: No, ma'am.
HANNAH: No? (surprise)
JEB: People can be released based on the judicial process not
being, you know, after review..... the most recent person that I recall,
the person was taken off of death row because it was remanded back to the
local court and the state attorney couldn't retry it because it had been
gone for so long, they would no longer be able be get the evidence or to
get people to testify -
ABE: Actually, you are talking about Rudolph Holton and what
happened was that the evidence that they used against him was discredited.
JEB: Well! If you any evidence that your husband is-
HANNAH: It's not about that -
JEB: No, I... it IS about that. If you're saying that your
husband is innocent, I'd like to get the information because our whole
system is geared to make sure that there - that we're NOT executing
innocent people. So if you have any information, that is part of my job.
HANNAH: But I'm not here because my husband is innocent. I'm
here because -
STEPHANIE: Well, I am.
JEB: You should be. If you believe he is innocent then you need
to give us information.
ABE: There are some broader issues that - these people are with us
in part so that you can see what's happening to families of the people on
death row....
JEB: Um hmm
ABE: ...and the guy you signed a death warrant for, yes, he
committed a horrible crime, but now his family has an interesting Christmas
present to deal with and that is the upcoming loss of their loved one to
unnecessary violence, and you know, it's not necessary, and especially when
you talk about the sanctity of life and the respect for life, and yet act
in such an inconsistent way - you talk about -
JEB: ...well, we can have a debate and then I'll be recorded and
you win your political point, which I'm more than happy again to provide
you the forum to do, but there is a difference to me of the sanctity and
the protection of innocent life and the fulfilling of a sentence that
we're... there is... a crime that is so atrocious, that you know, the
number of murders in our state, as you know, is 800, the number of people
that get the death penalty is, uh, close to 30, 25.
ABE: That's right. You can't tell the difference in most cases
between who gets the death penalty and who doesn't. It has a lot to do
with issues - Look, you should look at the story that was in the Lakeland
Ledger ( www.fadp.org/news/ledger-20031215.htm ) just this past week
about how counties are bearing the burden, and if it's a rural county, they
can't even afford a death penalty trial and they have to sometimes raise
taxes to be able to pay for a death penalty trial, and I understand that
that's set to move to the state in terms of funding.
JEB: All of it. It already has, it already has. All of the
circuit courts are paid for by the state...
ABE: Well, we have to look at who is on death row -
JEB: All of the county court -
ABE: - the bottom line is that fewer than 1% of the people who
could be executed are getting executed, and when you look at that and look
at who is not executed and who is, then you have a question of fairness. I
used to support the death penalty, and until I looked at how its being
applied and how often we are not using it, and who gets chosen and who
doesn't - that's a big concern, and I think that if people who are serious
about justice explore that issue - the consistency and the fairness of the
application - then you know, maybe we need to look at a different ultimate
punishment. (Looking at Stephanie) Do you have anything you want to say?
STEPHANIE: I don't know what to say.
CROSSTALK
SUEZANN: I didn't get to speak yet. I just need to remind you of
who I am. I am victim. I saw my father get stabbed to death. I got
stabbed too, and left for dead. (See the full story at
www.fadp.org/flm_bios.html#sue )
JEB: Unintelligible.
SUEZANN: I got stabbed also and left for dead. I was stabbed six
times and my Dad got stabbed 24 times. Here and here (pointing to her
head). And I want you to know what happened to me during the trials. I
wish you would help us with this, hopefully, [unintelligible -
crying] ...I was told by the judge that I could not say what my opinion
was. I know what your opinion is, and I respect that. But my opinion was
not allowed to be heard.
JEB: Unintelligible - reassuring?
[At this point SueZann handed Jeb a copy of the report, "Dignity Denied,"
from Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation, which he proceeded to look
through. See www.MVFR.org to look at the report, which details the
mistreatment encountered by murder victim family members who oppose the
execution of the person who murdered their loved one.]
SUEZANN: I went through 10 and 1/2 years of me trying to get the
man off death row and for life&all those years I went through such pain and
agony& my Dad's life was taken and I didn't want to live - it was not worth
it to me. It's almost like [unintelligible]. [You need to look into the]
the victim advocacy [program] because that last trial was different from
before. At the original trial they would hold my hand and get us
coffee. And the system - the State Attorney would have one of his students
fill one of our spaces so that we could get back into our seats. But then
we told them that our family did not want the death penalty for the
killer. And after that they treated me like they never knew me. We were
treated horrible, and then I got on the stand and he [the judge] said,
"SueZann, if you ever say anything about the death penalty, I will put you
in prison for six months, and fine you $500." I was treated like the
criminal in that court room and we need something done about that.
JEB: Unintelligible (crosstalk)
SUEZANN: I don't think its very fair. It needs to be fair for
them [indicating Hannah/death row families] and for everybody.
HANNAH: Even my husband's case-
SUEZANN: Fair for me because even though I'm against the death
penalty, I believe my pain is just as important as anybody else's.
JEB: I agree with that.
SUEZANN: I wish that you could help - that - they are victims too.
JEB: In the trial that you are referring to, this was the
original trial, or was this the-
SUEZANN: This was the third, the third sentencing trial.
CROSSTALK
SUEZANN: But I beg of you. I beg of you to help. Because there
are other people that are coming up all the time. There are other victims
like me that feel that when you kill somebody on death row, you're creating
more victims and we have so many victims in the system - you know that.
CROSSTALK
SUEZANN: And you don't want to create more.
HANNAH: Now there is something that I wanted to say to you. If you knew
what it feels like to stand out at that prison and hold a woman in your
arms when she knows that her husband or her son is being killed in there -
the first time you do that, when you feel them collapse because they know
that at just that time that "my husband is dead" or "my child is
dead." You should be out there just once - If you could feel that pain,
you would never sign another death warrant, I promise you - because you -
more people are-
JEB: Well, on the flip side I have met with a lot of victims who
were seeking justice... and who disagree with your point of view. A whole
lot of them. (Voice getting angry.)
ABE: Have you talked with any of them a couple of days or months
later?
JEB: Yep. I have. I've maintained communication with several
that - because-
ABE: They've been able to heal?
JEB: Yeah (self-assured). They have.
ABE: I'd be interested in talking with them if they were
interested....
JEB: You want-
ABE: What about the 99% of the victims families where there is no
justice of an execution? Where the perpetrator gets life without
parole? You know, what do you say to them?
JEB: What do you mean?
ABE: Well, when there is the death penalty - After there's an
execution, you say, "this is for the victims' families" - the death
penalty is for the victims' families.
JEB: crosstalk.... it's for carrying out the sentence that the state-
ABE: - but you are also quoted as saying, "this is for the
victims' families" and my question is-
JEB: - that is secondary to carrying out the sentence -
ABE: ...alright. Well, according to your rhetoric, the death
penalty is sold as a commodity for victims' families and yet it is used in
fewer than 1% of the cases.... then you know, what are we saying to the
other 99%? As I see it, you are saying "your loved ones aren't valuable
enough." The other piece...
JEB: No, I have concerns for the victims of all crimes...
ABE: Yes, well when we have a punishment that's reserved for such
a tiny minority of all the people for whom should be eligible - who are
eligible for that punishment, and yet we are using it so infrequently, then
there's a problem. It's not being equally and fairly applied.
JEB: So, you think we should do it more?
ABE: If we can't do it across the board, we shouldn't do it at
all. And I do, I used to be a supporter of the death penalty - and that's
what I used to say when I learned about this unfairness. It's gosh, if you
could cross the county line and not face -.and not -
JEB: That happens with every crime and every sentence. There is-
ABE: But death is different -
JEB: You cannot have complete equality of sentencing for every
circumstance - this is not possible - AND if it was possible the place to
sort that out would be the Florida Supreme Court.
EVERYBODY TALKS
SUEZANN: What did you mean -
EVERYBODY TALKS. Jeb's aides indicate that the time is up. Jeb stands.
ABE: Well, there are several things I would like to share with you
real quick before we go. First, this is another stack of moratorium
petitions. We've been calling for a "time-out" on
executions. (See www.fadp.org/moratorium.html ) (Abe hands Jeb
another 3,000+ signatures. Jeb neatly stacks the pile as he looks at it.)
JEB: OK
ABE: This is a videotape where it gives an interview with Don
Cabana who was a warden in Mississippi State Penitentiary at Parchman? He
executed several people; he also participated in an execution in
Florida. He talks in this videotape - it's only 13 minutes long. I hope
that you will take the time to look at this. (Copies of the video are
available to the media by e-mailing name, agency, and address to
<fadp@fadp.org>.)
JEB: I will.
ABE: He talks about the brutalization of prison workers who
participate in executions and what happens to them. Here's a letter from
John Blackwelder who wrote to me. ( www.fadp.org/killfordeath.html
) Now here's a murderer who is bragging about how as a prisoner sentenced
to life in prison he murdered in prison in order to get a death sentence
because he wanted to have a state-assisted suicide. He actually wrote in
here that YOU are going to help him get his state-assisted suicide. Have
a look at that.
JEB: I don't agree with you when you suggest what my motivations
are, but I'll read it.
ABE: I hope you will. This is the report of Xavier Amador
regarding the mental illness of Linroy Bottoson (
www.fadp.org/bottoson.html ). I want to make sure you have a copy of
that because it's unclear to me if you actually had a chance to read that
when you were executing Linroy Bottoson last year at this time during the
holiday season. Finally, this might interest you. I understand that
Hispanics are technically "white," but when the DOC lists all of the people
on death row - people of color on death row - they are not listing who is
Hispanic, and I think that sends a skewed message about how many people of
color are on death row. This is a copy of Juan Melendez' prison ID, who
was released in January 2002, and please have a look at that. (
www.fadp.org/hispanicdoc.html )
JEB: OK. [Speaking to Hannah] If you would, if you want to
speak with Secretary Crosby about issues related to visitation and all
that, he's here.
HANNAH: Oh really? That would be wonderful.
CROSSTALK
JEB: THANKS AND NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN. THANK YOU FOR COMING.
END
