- Story updated at 12:50 AM on Saturday, May. 30, 2009
Hello spamalot.
Death penalty: There's no right way to execute
A recent Times-Union lead story headlined "Death penalty: Changes in the past 30 years" is the unfolding of a comedy of errors. Tragic errors.
A condemned man's head electrode caught on fire. Failing to render one unconscious for the lethal hypodermic.
Our botches of the effort should be seen as a sign that there is no way of doing it right.
We ought not to be taking people's lives in the name of the state of Florida, just as we ought not be doing it as individuals.
I have taught intelligent young people in colleges throughout a full career, including teaching logic and reasoning, as well as ethics.
This experience has made me well aware that it is dreadfully easy for mistakes to enter into human reasoning.
The risk is especially high in the trying of capital cases, for in contrast to scientific inquiry, there is no control of the field of facts and there can be gaps both visible and hidden. Almost all the evidence is dependent on human transmission and interpretation, in which even the eye witness is notoriously open to error.
A trial at law is never so perfect that we can flatter ourselves that we have absolutely kept out all possibility of error.
The many rescues of convicted persons by new DNA evidence confirm that it is dangerously easy to come to mistaken verdicts of "guilty."
We should abolish the death penalty. For some, the reason is that life imprisonment costs much less.
For me, it is that the death penalty is so susceptible to error that we can never be sure that it is not ourselves, rather than the one accused of murder, who are taking a life unjustly.
JOHN T. GOLDTHWAIT,
retired professor,
St. Augustine Beach
Ironic
Most people that favor government imposed executions are the same ones that say the government can't do anything right.
Most people on death row deserve a harsh punishment. But the death penalty has never proven to be a deterrent, yet it does factor into criminals' willingness to resist arrest with deadly force. I can't say I know the answer, I just know that what we're doing isn't working.
The letter writer has ONE thing right...
We don't do the death penalty right!
After one good appeal process that shouldn't last more than two weeks, we need to put the convicted animal in front of a firing squad of five men, one with a blank of course.
The very fact that we keep some of these sub-humans alive at taxpayer's expense for as long as we do victimizes society as a whole and prolongs the injustice to the victim's family. The death penalty is the ultimate expression of "social justice" in a civil society, and when that society refuses to administer that justice it leaves an open wound that gets infected.
Criminal justice is one of the few VALID jobs of the government, let's make sure that it's not "justice denied."
Thus sayeth Obama..."It is only government that can break the vicious cycle where lost jobs lead to people spending less money which leads to even more layoffs."...Prepare yourself to survive this economic idiocy.
It's not supposed to be...
... a deterrent. What it does do is make darn sure that a piece of semi-human garbage does NOT repeat and victimize someone else.
As long as we have solid DNA
As long as we have solid DNA evidence with a proper chain of custody, I have no problem with the death penalty. But I agree that it takes too long and costs too much. Why do we need to spend money on medical personal standing by when we're about to kill a murderer?
For those cases where there is some doubt, their life term needs to be in a real prison, not some posh recreational facility. The French had it right with Devil's Island.
"Shrug"
http://www.numbersusa.com/content/resources/video/recommended/immigratio...
"The government cannot give to anyone anything that it does not first take from someone else."
"Si vis pacem, para bellum."
John and spots I agree with you.
Society as a whole-and more importantly the victim's family-suffer a terrible injustice at the hands of the vermin who commited the crime. Justice delayed IS justice denied. Justice delayed indefinitely is an abomination.
Ironically, many of the same handwringing bed-wetters who defend these vicious killers on death row would deny citizens water from the river, fearing that fish and filter feeders might be harmed. I detect a skewed leftist morality...
Thus sayeth Obama..."It is only government that can break the vicious cycle where lost jobs lead to people spending less money which leads to even more layoffs."...Prepare yourself to survive this economic idiocy.
Death Penalty
I believe it is easy to take the side that the death penalty is the best thing but for the sake of discussion I will post some of the counter argument.
First thing to keep in mind is that the death penalty is not a deterent. Going to jail is not a a deterent. For some people sure they may not kill someone because they want to face the consequences but for most they kill or commit other crimes because they feel they can get away with it. They dont expect to get caught. There are more unsolved murders and other crimes than we realize.
Even though the article by the retired professor doesnt really go into depth about this issue he makes the point about DNA evidence and how thats caused convictions to be overturned. Many convictions have historically been based off of "eye witness" testimony and circumstantial evidence which have learned can at times be unreliable. There are in fact times when people want justice so much until they just want to see a conviction. Anyone who has ever worked in the judicial system knows that it is imperfect. For instance money will buy you the best defense. This is an inherent flaw because if you are up for a capital crime or any crime for that matter, you either hope you have a lawyer that believes in your case and is really being an advocate for you or you have enough money stashed away in order to buy the best defense that money can buy. Its very hard to rationalize an absolute punishment an system with so many flaws.
Another thing to keep in mind with the death penalty is that it is not applied consistently. If you are a man you are more likely to have the death penalty applied and if you are a minority you are more likely to have it applied and if you are poor, you are more likely to have it applied. If you are going to have an absolute punishment, there has to be consistency as to when you apply it and when you dont. To be honest with you, I am not even sure if juries should decide it (as they do in FL) because that lends to the inconsistency.
As far as taxpayer dollars being used on prisoners. There is an appeals process. The appeals process is long and there are many factors that cause this to happen. For those like the last poster that say, lets make it a two week process, you are really saying you dont believe in due process or the constitution. I believe that one of the things that make our system the best is that its based on the premis that its better to let 1,000 guilty men go free than to put one innocent man to death. We have freedoms in this country that separate ourselves from places like some of the countries in the middle east and third would countries who ignore concepts such as due process. And yes yours and my tax dollars help pay for some of those freedoms. If I am going to pay taxes anyway, I want it to go towards us protecting some of our most fundemental rights as Americans.
Having said all of this, there are those cases so outrageous and reprehensible that they have to be dealt with accordingly. What should the punishment for these crimes be. I recommend exile. Exile to some island awar from society that is heavily guarded and the prisoners are require to grow their own food and sustain themselves.
@John Gault
Actually if there is a doubt as to whether they are guilty, they should not be in prison at all.Bible Thumpers unite
I am waiting for the bible thumper crowd on here to state their opinions about the death penalty. The very same ones who say God needs to be in schools, our govt and everyone's life, are also the same ones who say use the death penalty all the time. How can you be pro God and also pro death????????
Now I know, people will say the bible teaches "eye for an eye." So let's look at that, if my daughter is raped, do I now get to rape the criminal? If someone looks lustfully at my wife, do I get freedom to look lustfully at their wife? See, you can't say "eye for an eye" unless you plan on applying it to everything, just like God in school. If we want our God in schools, then everyone else get's their God in school also.
Thump on Jacksonville.
Very Funny Socal Plant
Heck, I don't even go to church, but i'm waiting for the pro-abortion crowd to chime in. It's OK to kill hundreds of thousands of unborn babies each year, but these same folks will fight and protest the death of one murdering scum rapist? Go figure.
Executions
Hey, I've got an idea. All you bleeding heart liberals can prepare a video re-enacting the crime committed by the criminal. Then you show it to the jury in the penalty phase (a man raping a three month old baby, for instance) and beg for compassion for the poor child rapist. Probably the jury would be glad to put the poor little misunderstood rapist in front of a firing squad. I'll be glad to volunteer to shoot the poor little man.
You are absolutely correct
You are absolutely correct "just another". Socal being the typical lib points out the hypocrisy of pro death penalty yet against abortion. Yet, he fails to point out the left hypocrisy regarding pro abortion/anti-death penalty. Probably because he believes in the latter.
Its the economy, stupid
I am pretty left-wing, but I really don't get that excited about the death penalty. Provided there is actual due-process, competent representation, and an un-biased jury, I say fry the bastards.......but, the truth is that the death penalty is a total waste of tax-dollars and should be abolished accordingly.
As a proud yankee (although I've lived here 15 years) I still can't believe that some people actually think creationism is real and that there is an evolution "debate". (There isn't any "debate" in the rest of the county BTW)
So, I don't expect the blood-thirsty legions of Jax to follow this argument , but there are certain things that will remain true as long as we have a death penalty.
1. The appellate process will ALWAYS take years and will ALWAYS require incredible taxpayer expense;
2. The average cost to take a single person in Florida from trial to execution is 3 MILLION DOLLARS (according to the internet, so it may not be accurate);
3. Our State government has been unable to properly fund just about anything anymore, but especially the court system;
4. This means an increased drain on the limited resources of the Court, prosecutors, and public defenders to deal with death cases;
5. Because the rights of the criminal will not be lessoned just because our state is broke, the costs will remain astronomical;
6. Don't forget - the death penalty has never been proven (in countless studies) to deter crime one bit.
So just how important is it REALLY to maintain such a system? Just how much will be pay for revenge?
jmj1941 - wow, you're a total dik
BTW - I'm proud to be a bleeding heart liberal. That means I actually have a heart, unlike you cold-blooded P.O.S.
You are seriously screwed up. That tough-guy talk is clearly compensation for something; are you in the closet?
You said
"I have taught intelligent young people in colleges throughout a full career, including teaching logic and reasoning, as well as ethics"
That says it all.
The only professor I ever heard of changing their Liberal mind was George Kirkham of FSU after becoming a police officer on a dare.
http://www.policensw.com/info/history/kirkham1.html
Once he saw lifes realities instead of a books perception he changed for the better I believe.
Death penalities that cause a lil' pain is a good thing.
We are so da-n worried about the bad guy and don't give the dead victim any consideration. BS I say.
El Jefe
Could I use that picture of that big doberman? I have a picture of a little chihuahua (sp?) named Princess - all decked out in pink - on my Facebook page, and think it would be funny to put that "bad boy" dobie on there as her husband or something.
I haven't read this page yet so I have no opinion.
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Ciao, PTM, Jack SON ville
I CARE, http://phyllisthemissionary.tripod.com/whatchristiansbelieve.html
P.S. Hi, St. MORGAN.
Are you SERIOUS
Errors in the deathe penalty>?? Is there such a thing ? If there were to be an error, what does it matter>? and why should we care? Do you really think that the CONVICTED ******&*!# worried about making an error when taking an innocent persons life, rapping a child, or any of these type crimes? I highly doubt it. The ONLY error that is made when it comes to the death sentence and the carrying out of the death penalty of the CONVICTED inmate, is that it takes to long from conviction to death, it should be carried out the day after the conviction !!
PTM
That's okay, but he would have rather been listed as her paramour:)
Also, I said 'would' because El Jefe is no longer with us.
Then paramour it is (probably)! :)
I'm so sorry to hear that he is no longer with us.
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Ciao, PTM, Jack SON ville
I CARE, http://phyllisthemissionary.tripod.com/whatchristiansbelieve.html
I still don't know
Personally, if someone intends or does harm to me, mine or innocents, I have no compunction about inflicting grave violence on that person. I just have a problem with the state doing it.
If it's a just punishment, why do we execute it in the dark of night and out of view except of a select few? If you're going to do it, do it in public at high noon and possibly televise it. Maybe that would then become a deterrent.
I've always wondered why, as a punishment for murder, the state commits what is in effect premeditated homocide. Call it justified if you will, but it is what it is.
I don't trust the state to have that kind of power over me. Stop and think sometime what a vindictive or ambitious State's Attorney with only a little collusion or laziness from the police could do to you. It's happened before.
Finally, there have been many "oops" on capital convictions that have been reversed. And that's why the appeals process is so long and drawn out. Once you kill the person, oops won't cut it any more.
It's the same old cry babies
who think it's okay to support worthless murderers all their lives in prison. And as someone above said, it's usually the same ones who are against the death penalty who think the murder of babies is okay.
The silly professor is typical of most professors these days. What trial is ever perfect? We do the best we can and the outcome is what we go by. If the law calls for the death penalty then do it! Good grief Professor! You're retired and you still haven't grown up enough to face reality.
BTW, Mr. Proud to be a Liberal, who has such a big heart, where is your heart for the people who have been hideously murdered? Where is your heart for the 9 month old baby girl who was raped until she was almost torn into two parts? Where is your heart for the little girl who was raped, murdered and thrown off on the side of the road? Where is your heart for the innocent college girls who were horribly raped, sodomized and murdered? Where is your heart for the little boys who are kidnapped, tortured, repeatedly sodomized and then turned loose when they are no longer little boys? Where is your heart for the parents and siblings who have to live with the horror of what was done to their precious family members? Yeah, be proud...
btw, Annie1
Rape is not a capital offense in Florida. Only first-degree murder, felony murder, and capital drug trafficking.
But I agree with your sentiments.
death penalty
what really scares me about it it the possibility of putting someone to death only to find out later they were totally, without doubt innocent. i for one would have a very hard time with that. so far as it being a deterent, look at our world today compared to say 10, even 20 yrs. ago. it doesn't look like it has made any difference. because of the long, drawn out appeals process? probably. and, no, i don't know the answer, myself.Is actually a moderate conservative
So the idiot above who thinks I am the way I am because I am lib. I don't believe in abortion and I don't believe in the death penalty, how's that for an oxymoron in politics. Can someone actually be against both???????? According to the doctrine of the all mighty political party, you can't. Guess that is why I think both parties are screwed up.
Actually I think ElJefe is also against both, so we should start our own political party, call it the "I think for myself" party.
Response to "elJefe"
I'm inclined to agree with you, although there are certainly some cases that stretch the matter a bit.
I'm reminded that several dozen men on "Death Row" in Illinois (and other places) were eventually exonerated -- found to be totally innocent -- when the "Innocence Project" brought some legal power and DNA science to bear. Quite a large number of men went directly from "Death Row" to completely free, totally innocent. The State had withheld evidence, not conducting or allowing DNA testing of forensic evidence.
It was such a terrific embarrassment that the Governor of Illinois commuted the sentences of every single inmate on "Death Row".....completely stopped all executions.
But then the real dirt started to creep out -- seems a prosecutor had deliberately withheld exculpatory evidence. As I recall at least one prosecutor wound up in prison.
Unless, and until, we can do something which will somehow guarantee that government bureaucrats and law enforcement personnel will not engage in illegal activity, try to "frame" people just to get a conviction, I'm satisfied that the only right thing to do is to severely limit the use of capital punishment -- perhaps even suspend it.
More people need to be aware of the "truth" about jury duty, too. No matter what the judge or prosecutor try to tell you, the fact of the matter is that a juror can NOT be held to account for his/her/it's vote. It is purely the judgment of the individual, without having to explain it to anyone. Ever.
In fact, if you decided that (for example) "yes, John Doe did kill Ed Poe, but Ed Poe NEEDED killing" you can vote "not guilty" -- essentially telling the State that you don't want John Doe punished in your name.
Absolutely NO ONE can do anything AT ALL about that. The Jury has the final say and can't be questioned about the decision if they don't want to be.
It's called "jury nullification" - prosecutors and judges really hate it, but it's intrinsic to the U.S. Constitution and it is THE final check on their authority.
For more, see: http://www.juryduty.org/
Mike
Mike "Sic Semper Tyranus"
The death penalty.
Just like a lot of topics in America today many people have many views.
My feelings on the death penalty are that it should be in place.
However, I think the appeals process and the system that makes up our Justice system need to be fixed. Most notably on the side of the Prosicutors.
The court of appeals that handles death sentences in Florida should have a court room attached to the prison and there should be judges, prosecutors and attorneys right there handling there appeals. Streamline it, correct it, and put a review process in place. Do the hearing, have the judge make a verdict, then a second judge will read the court transcripts and the verdict and he too will sign the petition upholding or exhonorating the person. Obviously there will need to be other safe guards and checks and balances but these are just some ideas.
We need to think strongly also about Exile and deportation. There is nothing wrong with setting up an island out in the middle of nowhere to send extremely violent/repeat offendors. They can live on there own, make there own little communities and even have there drugs and gangs.
There is a place for the death sentence and I only say that because if you go look it up, there have been in several states escaped inmates on life sentences who have raped and murdered.
Just my two cents, I know not everyone will agree with me, but to be honest, I just want a fair justice system, that disciplines the offendor and takes into account the victim.
About
some of the death row cases mentioned above where people were later exonerated, they didn't have DNA at the time they were convicted. We regularly use DNA now.
We don't have a perfect system but it's the only one we've got. To be fair in this discussion we would have to include thousands who were indeed guilty but somehow got off because of some technicality.
About
It wasn't only DNA. There were witness recantations, prosecutorial misconduct and cases where the police planted evidence. Also, DNA is not always available even in rape cases; a lot of criminals have been watching CSI.
No, it's not a perfect system. I can't say I'm opposed to the death penalty, I just don't have the moral certitude of many of you. And no one seems to want to answer as to why we execute in the dark of night - that's interesting.
Exile could be an answer. I vaguely recall a movie about something like that once. I think the island wound up split into two camps - felons vs. political prisoners. I can't recall the name of it, it wasn't really that good a movie.
eljefe
The dark of night part of it is probably b/c there aren't as many protestors who would be willing to go out at night. Seriously.
As to your mention of that movie, it's funny that you ended by saying that it wasn't that good of a movie. That reminded me of how the movie critic guy in the TU (might be the same guy still) used to say "I'll give it a 4 out of 5" stars and then he would proceed to rip the movie to shreds. :-)
El jefe
I don't have that picture on file. If you could either replace your picture with it temporarily, attach it on one of the blogs (mine won't do that anymore - don't know if yours will) or email it to me at phyllisthemissionary@yahoo.com that would be great.
Thank you. ----------------------------------------------
Ciao, PTM, Jack SON ville
I CARE, http://phyllisthemissionary.tripod.com/whatchristiansbelieve.html
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