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Transcript of SueZann and Abe’s Meeting with Jeb
- SueZann and Abe meet with the Governor. In the background are Ron Word of the Associated Press and Lesley Clark of the Miami Herald.
Presented with MANY thanks to Carolyn Gray, who transcribed the video recording of this 18 minute meeting, and who, upon hearing of the possibility of this meeting, immediately INSISTED we go.
DISCUSSION ITEMS OF NOTE:
- * “Please don’t use victim’s pain for political gain.”
* Presentation of thousands of moratorium petition signatures.
* Im a devout Catholic
* The Innocence Protection Act
* New witness in the Amos King case
* Illinois Moratorium Commission recommendations
* FADP challenge to debate.
Governor Bush: Hello
SueZann Bosler: Hello.
Governor Bush: Hi, SueZann.
Abe Bonowitz: Im Abe Bonowitz.
Governor Bush: Hi, Abe.
[Background talk as others come in. Bush’s Communications staff person introduces the reporters who have come in with us: Ron Word of the Associated Press, Lesley Clark of the Miami Herald, a videographer and reporter from Florida’s News Channel, and Laura Cardona, an FSU film student who is doing a documentary.]
******
- Governor Bush:
- Whats goin on?
- SueZann Bosler:
- Well, um, Im here, like you said in the auditorium, I guess Im here as one of the people to maybe give a little critique, here, just so youd expect it.
- Governor Bush:
- Great.
- SueZann Bosler:
- Um, Im going to tell you this is that Im, I watched my father, Reverend Billy Bosler and myself being stabbed. [Getting a little emotional] I watched my father being stabbed to death in front of my eyes.
- Governor Bush:
- When was that?
- SueZann Bosler:
- December 22, 1986. And it was in the parsonage at the church. And, I went to .
- Governor Bush: Im sorry
- SueZann Bosler:
- Thank you. I went through many years of being angry at the man that did it, and I finally forgave him. I went through many sentencings and I was able to speak in his name to get him off of death row and into a life sentence, and the reason I did that is because my father was against the death penalty, and my whole family is against the death penalty, and I dont think a life is for a life. There is no eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, or the world will be blind. And I made these notes because when I was stabbed I was stabbed in the head twice and my memory and speech, so I will be affected the rest of my life. My time is short and I, I had this video [hands him a video tape] that was done by 48 hours and I would like, I would really appreciate if you were to see it
- Governor Bush:
- Sure.
- SueZann Bosler:
- because it shows one big scene
- Governor Bush:
- Is that [pointing to the tape]
- SueZann Bosler:
- Correct SueZann Bosler and it shows a [inaudible] on one of the trials I was threatened um to be put into jail
- Governor Bush:
- Why?
- SueZann Bosler:
- because I was, I was, he asked me a question. The State Attorney asked me a question of what I did for a living and I said Im a hair dresser and I work to abolish the death penalty, and thats what I do, and he threatened to put me into jail.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- SueZann was not allowed to advocate for her familys position that did not seek the death penalty for the perpetrator, and the judge said if you say anything about that then youre in jail. Because she was not allowed to have her, as a victims rights, or as a victim, to have her right to say I dont want this guy killed.
- Governor Bush:
- I dont think thats the case anymore, is it?
crosstalk
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Im not a lawyer, I couldnt tell you, but thats what happened to her.
- Governor Bush:
- Yeah.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- And thats the problem. When people speak – when advocates for the death penalty speak, as we have heard you say just in the last week, Im here for the victims, well, not all the victims want that.
- Governor Bush:
- Right, but most do.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Many do.
- Governor Bush:
- Many do.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- But not all.
- Governor Bush:
- Nope. Obviously not.
- SueZann Bosler:
- Id just appreciate .
- Governor Bush:
- But that, that, thats not go ahead.
- SueZann Bosler:
- Im sorry to interrupt you I would just appreciate it if you didnt use me as one of those of those victims because .
- Governor Bush:
- I wont.
- SueZann Bosler:
- .because Im here for life, not death. I dont want anybody to speak in my name for death because its worse. Violence perpetuates violence. It doesnt help. It makes it more suffering for us, going through that death penalty system and its more suffering for me than if they would have put him in for life.
- Governor Bush:
- I will not uh refer to you because you obviously are passionate about your views. Having said, I, I support the death penalty. And I wish that it would be administered in a way that wouldnt be as difficult for victims, the family members, because it is compounded [or confounded] and contorted and twisted and you know in the last two cases where people stood on death row that now there is a stay on there, the crimes I think in the late 70s.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Its a long, long time.
Crosstalk
- Governor Bush:
- .stay and uh
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Last week when you said that you were with the victims that were driving in their cars on the way to the prison, but you know, Linroy Bottison and Amos King have people that love them, too. And when these people are exterminated, then their loved ones become victims familys also. And, it doesnt matter how you look at it, when you have lost a loved one to violence, its losing a loved one to violence, and theyre all victims. So, its
theres obviously a distinction. We ask, please dont use victims pain for pol
itical gain. - Governor Bush:
- Im not.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Well, it seems that way. It comes across that way.
Crosstalk
- Governor Bush:
- Well, youre wrong. Youre wrong. This is the most difficult thing I do and I respect your position and certainly will be mindful of the fact that you have this position and you should respect mine as well, and not imply motivations that are incorrect. Maybe we could reach a consensus
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Well perhaps we can reach a consensus on that
- Governor Bush:
- Just because I dont agree with you doesnt mean that my motivation isnt sincere, and it is the law of the land and I have a duty to uphold the law. You know, if you want to try to change the law, you have a right to do that.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Well, we are working on that.
- Governor Bush:
- You have every right to do that.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- We have several other things we wanted to share with you.
- Governor Bush:
- Sure.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- One is another stack of petitions. We were here with We were at your office in January with Delbert Tibbs and Brad Scott and Dave Keaton, who are three of Floridas death row survivors, wrongly convicted and released off of death row and you were out of town that day so we met with one of your assistants but um.
- Governor Bush:
- You mean you went to Tallahassee?
- Abe Bonowitz:
- We did a walk, actually. A number of us walked from the death row to Tallahassee, 143 miles to bring you these petitions and at that time it was more than 20,000. Heres a few more thousand. [SueZann and Abe hand him several stacks of petitions.] But in particular, you know when youve got this is Im sure you have your own copy this is the Commission on Capital Cases report on the 23 people they say 23, there are actually 24 people
[Abe is referring to the Florida Moratorium Walk by Floridians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty in January 2002, which ended with the presentation of more than 20,000 petition signatures calling for a “Time-Out” on executions in Florida. Click here for details –FADP]
- Governor Bush:
- No, I havent seen that.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- You ought to ask Locke Burt for a copy of that. Um, the problem with this report is that it, its not complete. Uh, and its it purports to look at 23 of the 24 cases of wrongful conviction and there is innuendo in there, there is mis-statement, and, and they claim to have given defense attorneys the opportunity to
- Governor Bush:
- Im sorry. Have you done a critique of it?
- Abe Bonowitz:
- We are in the process of that and well have Ill provide that to you when we get it done, we havent had a chance to complete it yet. But I can tell you I have spoken with several lawyers whose clients are their cases are profiled there and, and they are saying, wait a second. They didnt talk to me and, and, thats not accurate information. So
- Governor Bush:
- When do you think youll have it ready?
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Uh hopefully by the end of the summer.
- Governor Bush:
- Okay. I can tell you from my perspective which is
.from my perspective which is, which relates to the death warrants I have signed
uh I have absolutely no doubt that the people were, were guilty. Absolutely no doubt.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- You know that there is a new witness in Amos Kings case that corroborates part of his story?
- Governor Bush:
- Every time that those that information comes out, we look at it very closely. And I have absolutely no doubt that the death warrants I have signed have been for people who were justly sentenced for the crime they committed.
- SueZann Bosler:
- Thats also why I I think .
- Governor Bush:
- And, the other thing is that people, you know, the system does work in that there are cases of people –
- SueZann Bosler:
- Thats why I think that I would respect you more if you did like two other governors in this country have done and put a moratorium in for not only to abolish the death penalty but to bring it out in the open and learn more about it. Because my father taught me that if you believe in something, you have to know both sides. And I think thats what we all have to know. And if [inaudible] the system. Because James Bernard Campbell, who killed my father has a title, premeditated murderer, and if Im going to want anybody killed, [inaudible] they would be a premeditated murderer, too how can the Government kill somebody?
- Governor Bush:
- inaudible (I disagree?)
- SueZann Bosler:
- And I dont think thats right
- Governor Bush:
- I disagree. I just respectfully disagree. I think theres a big difference between, uh, capital punishment and the crimes that create the need for it .but again .
- SueZann Bosler:
- How that is different?
- Governor Bush:
- Well, one case is uh, uh the protection of innocent life and the other case is someone commits this atrocious crime, you know most murders are not people arent sentenced to the death penalty its only a small fraction of these incredibly atrocious crimes that are committed.
- SueZann Bosler:
- But
- Governor Bush:
- I can distinguish, as a majority of Floridians can, between those two. And thats where our disagreement is probably based.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- [interrupted]
- Governor Bush:
- Having said that, I respect you enormously for having your position, particularly you [looking at Bosler], because of what youve gone through. And uh I have many, Im a devout Catholic and uh once a year I meet with the Bishops and they respectfully lecture me from their position, which is one that I respect enormously about this issue and theyre on your side. And I, I, this is not something, again, where I Ive got the impression that you think that Ive not thought this through or .
- Abe Bonowitz:
- I dont think that at all.
- Governor Bush:
- .I think about this a lot. It is the most difficult thing I have to do, but Im at peace with my position, and I do believe that it is appropriate for the State to do it, so .
- Abe Bonowitz:
- I’m glad you, you mentioned the protection of innocent life. I dont know if you are familiar but right know in Congress, in, in I think they call it mark-up, they are looking at the Innocence Protection Act this week.
- Governor Bush:
- Im not aware of the act .
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Well, hopefully its going to pass. And basically what it does is set out protections that have to be in place in state laws and federal laws to make sure that we are not executing the wrong person. And..
- Governor Bush:
- The innocence protection act? [writing it down]
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Innocence Protection Act.
- Governor Bush:
- Ill get my office to look at it. Im not aware of it
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Ill let me know who to convey that information to Ill make sure
- Governor Bush: Ill find it Ill get it
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Its in the Legislature right know, its in mark-up. Uh, so we have that concern. Additionally, Governor Ryan, in Illinois, as you know declared a moratorium, but more important, he appointed a nonpartisan committee, a commission, to look at the death penalty in Illinois and they issued their report rece
ntly with 85 recommendations about how they can improve the system and try to prevent the execution of the innocent. And a lot of those recommendations would fit right in with Floridas law in terms of needing to be done. So I would urge you also to look at the report from Illinois. You dont have to waste Florida tax dollars doing our own commission report. Lets look at the report from Illinois and implement those .- Governor Bush:
- Im for not wasting tax payer dollars so I appreciate the
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Then if thats the case, then I hope you look at the studies from the Miami Herald and the Palm Beach Post that show how much money
- Governor Bush: crosstalk
- Abe Bonowitz:
- more were spending on the death penalty than we would with life without parole.
- Governor Bush:
- Two of my favorite papers.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Im sure. Uh but you know they dont put information out without carefully researching it and and the Palm Beach Post in particular showed that you have
- Governor Bush:
- small talk inaudible.. (about Lesley Clark, who was in the room for the Miami Herald.)
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Im not saying that for Lesleys benefit .but you have uh the Palm Beach Post estimated that wed save a minimum of $51 million dollars a year annually if we just went with life without parole instead of the death penalty.
- Governor Bush:
- we could make the death penalty .
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Weve been tryin to do that for almost 30 years and
- Governor Bush:
- If we had a process where it didnt take 20 years for the execution to take place, then the costs
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Again, it goes to the, I mean James Bernard Campbell, who killed her father was sentenced to death twice before he had a third re-sentencing hearing where he got life w .four life sentences and thats a lot of lot of money wasted.
- Governor Bush:
- It is .
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Florida has one of the highest turnover rates of death sentences
- Governor Bush:
- It does
- Abe Bonowitz:
- which is why
- Governor Bush:
- why the judiciary needs to, to provide some information to the circuit court judges about when it is appropriate to have the death penalty be the sentence when 50% of the cases are overturned on direct appeal.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Thats right. We also need some better training for our prosecutors and our defense attorneys.
- Governor Bush:
- Absolutely. Thats [inaudible] responsibility?
- Abe Bonowitz:
- .these are all things that are part of the recommendations in the report I hope youll look at that
- Governor Bush:
- I agree with that. I agree with that. I gotta run.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- Im sorry. One last thing before we go. We do have a challenge for you Wed like to invite you to join us in a debate about the issue. So Floridians can hear both sides articulated in a public forum.
- SueZann Bosler:
- we want people to know both sides
- Abe Bonowitz:
- We dont own a newspaper
- Governor Bush:
- Well, weve made it possible for your side to be heard here, so .I have no problems with that.
[FADP understands Bush’s response as being to suggest that the forum in which we were then speaking, in front of the media then present, was public enough. FADP is seeking a clarification and a formal response in writing to the challenge to debate publicly. To see the full text of the Challenge to Debate, Click Here ]
- SueZann Bosler:
- ..so what I just want to say again – why kill people who kill people to show them that killing people is wrong?
cross talk and good byes.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- And a friend of mine, this is no comment on anything but a friend of mine makes these and asked me to give you that. So, no comment on anything, just might be helpful sometime. [Abe presented Governor Bush with a Get Out of Hell Free card.
(http://www.thisistrue.com/goohf.html) - Governor Bush:
- Thanks, thank you. Good meeting you. Take care.
- Abe Bonowitz:
- See you again sometime.
- Governor Bush:
- Yeah, Im sure .
END OF SESSION
******
FADP received the following letter. It will respond.
From: Governor Jeb Bush [email protected]
To: “‘[email protected]'”
Subject: Lake City
Meeting with Gov. Bush
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:19:40 -0400
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)Governor Bush asked me to thank you for meeting with him and delivering the petitions during open office hours in Lake City on the issue of capital punishment.
As you know, Governor Bush believes that the death penalty is appropriate and warranted in certain capital murder cases, and he support its use by the courts in those cases. He also believes we should look not only to the issues surrounding the defendant, but also to the surviving victims, and to the effect the murder has on our community as a whole, in deciding whether the death penalty is an appropriate punishment.
Governor Bush shares the concerns of many that the death penalty must be reserved for only the most heinous cases. As he has said many times, the signing of a death warrant is one of the most solemn and somber responsibilities he must undertake, and he does so with humble deliberation.
Again, we appreciate your participation during Citizens’ Day.
Sincerely,
Belinda Wheeler
Office of the Governor- Background
- Transcript of Laura’s Meeting with Jeb!
- Reflections by the participants.
- News Articles
- Jeb Rejects FADP Challenge
- Index
- Home
(http://www.thisistrue.com/goohf.html)